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	<title>Comments on: CNE announces NO win (updated entry)</title>
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	<link>http://hovreferendum.wordpress.com/2007/12/03/cne-announces-no-win/</link>
	<description>Hands Off Venezuela blog about the constitutional reform referendum</description>
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		<title>By: gonz</title>
		<link>http://hovreferendum.wordpress.com/2007/12/03/cne-announces-no-win/#comment-40</link>
		<dc:creator>gonz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 22:17:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hovreferendum.wordpress.com/2007/12/03/cne-announces-no-win/#comment-40</guid>
		<description>Alot of you people didn&#039;t bother to read the numbers did you? The point is that this isn&#039;t a victory for the opposition but a defeat for the chavistas. The people differentiating between socialism and Chavismo is healthy even if we don&#039;t necessarily agree with it (had I been born Venezuelan I would&#039;ve voted &#039;SI&#039;). However as someone pointed out, this result is likely to lead to the right-wing overplaying its hand (seeing as their strategy seemed to be counting on a victory for the &#039;SI&#039; vote which they could then accuse of fraud). The fact that Chavez&#039;s pet reforms were defeated in a clean referendum also should make the accusations of tyranny ring a bit more hollow in the ears of any sane person. I&#039;m not saying this is a victory for the bolivarian project, but I wouldn&#039;t say the sky is falling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alot of you people didn&#8217;t bother to read the numbers did you? The point is that this isn&#8217;t a victory for the opposition but a defeat for the chavistas. The people differentiating between socialism and Chavismo is healthy even if we don&#8217;t necessarily agree with it (had I been born Venezuelan I would&#8217;ve voted &#8216;SI&#8217;). However as someone pointed out, this result is likely to lead to the right-wing overplaying its hand (seeing as their strategy seemed to be counting on a victory for the &#8216;SI&#8217; vote which they could then accuse of fraud). The fact that Chavez&#8217;s pet reforms were defeated in a clean referendum also should make the accusations of tyranny ring a bit more hollow in the ears of any sane person. I&#8217;m not saying this is a victory for the bolivarian project, but I wouldn&#8217;t say the sky is falling.</p>
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		<title>By: Allan</title>
		<link>http://hovreferendum.wordpress.com/2007/12/03/cne-announces-no-win/#comment-35</link>
		<dc:creator>Allan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 12:59:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hovreferendum.wordpress.com/2007/12/03/cne-announces-no-win/#comment-35</guid>
		<description>I am extremely surprised by this turn out, I was expecting a pretty substantial yes vote. The opposition have not really won in this, only 100,000 more votes for them, I think its fair to say that the massive decline in votes for Chavez was proberly due to some of the more draconian sounding changes, and thus shows the masses are breaking with Chavez, not to join the opposition but to actually demand Socialism rather than this oxymoron that Chavez calls for (socialism, for the protection of private property, what the hell?)

There is a very large contradiction in all of this, Chavez calling for a socialist state, saying that the bourgeois state must be destroyed and in its place a proletarian state must be created, but at the same time asking for longer electoral terms and unlimited reelections. This contradiction may have been enough to show the 45% of abstention, that Chavez was not in reality prepared to create a socialist state.

Though the confusion over the matter also lays in the fact that (ignoring the allowing of Chavez to do what he wants in a state of emergency thing) the reform was generally very progressive, a 36 hour working week, recognition of collective property, recognition of communal councils, voting age lowered to 16, the autonomy of the banks thing etc. So this shows that the masses were willing to not gain these in order to prevent Chavez&#039;s more authoritarian reforms going through.

I am a Socialist, I believe in the ideas of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Trotsky but I would like you to know as a Trotskyist I do not support the Castro regime, I do recognise its progressive structures brought about by a nationalised planned economy, but as a Trotskyist I demand that the masses themselves control society that they control where their profits go and not a bureaucratic layer as in the USSR (post Lenin), China, Vietnam, Laos, Eastern Europe, N Korea etc. These states are caricatures of socialism. We also do not want Chavez to become another Castro, we want him to dismantle the bourgeois state, hand over all power the the workers themselves, nationalise the economy and let the workers plan it, there is no room for Chavez in the final analysis of our demands for the creating of a socialist state, he can merely play as the spark that ignites it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am extremely surprised by this turn out, I was expecting a pretty substantial yes vote. The opposition have not really won in this, only 100,000 more votes for them, I think its fair to say that the massive decline in votes for Chavez was proberly due to some of the more draconian sounding changes, and thus shows the masses are breaking with Chavez, not to join the opposition but to actually demand Socialism rather than this oxymoron that Chavez calls for (socialism, for the protection of private property, what the hell?)</p>
<p>There is a very large contradiction in all of this, Chavez calling for a socialist state, saying that the bourgeois state must be destroyed and in its place a proletarian state must be created, but at the same time asking for longer electoral terms and unlimited reelections. This contradiction may have been enough to show the 45% of abstention, that Chavez was not in reality prepared to create a socialist state.</p>
<p>Though the confusion over the matter also lays in the fact that (ignoring the allowing of Chavez to do what he wants in a state of emergency thing) the reform was generally very progressive, a 36 hour working week, recognition of collective property, recognition of communal councils, voting age lowered to 16, the autonomy of the banks thing etc. So this shows that the masses were willing to not gain these in order to prevent Chavez&#8217;s more authoritarian reforms going through.</p>
<p>I am a Socialist, I believe in the ideas of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Trotsky but I would like you to know as a Trotskyist I do not support the Castro regime, I do recognise its progressive structures brought about by a nationalised planned economy, but as a Trotskyist I demand that the masses themselves control society that they control where their profits go and not a bureaucratic layer as in the USSR (post Lenin), China, Vietnam, Laos, Eastern Europe, N Korea etc. These states are caricatures of socialism. We also do not want Chavez to become another Castro, we want him to dismantle the bourgeois state, hand over all power the the workers themselves, nationalise the economy and let the workers plan it, there is no room for Chavez in the final analysis of our demands for the creating of a socialist state, he can merely play as the spark that ignites it.</p>
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		<title>By: Karl's Brother Groucho</title>
		<link>http://hovreferendum.wordpress.com/2007/12/03/cne-announces-no-win/#comment-34</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl's Brother Groucho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 12:40:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hovreferendum.wordpress.com/2007/12/03/cne-announces-no-win/#comment-34</guid>
		<description>&gt;This goes to show everyone that Marx, Lenin were right…..you can’t &gt;overthrow capitalism using the liberal democracy and the state.

Indeed, people will not vote for a dictator when they can look and see what deprivation and injustice will follow. Comrades, the Marxist experiment is over. It doesn&#039;t work. It claimed to be a scientific theory, and was falsified, because it inevitably leads to autocracy, with injustice and squalor for everyone else. By its  own theoretical predictions it fails. So let go.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;This goes to show everyone that Marx, Lenin were right…..you can’t &gt;overthrow capitalism using the liberal democracy and the state.</p>
<p>Indeed, people will not vote for a dictator when they can look and see what deprivation and injustice will follow. Comrades, the Marxist experiment is over. It doesn&#8217;t work. It claimed to be a scientific theory, and was falsified, because it inevitably leads to autocracy, with injustice and squalor for everyone else. By its  own theoretical predictions it fails. So let go.</p>
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		<title>By: Jose</title>
		<link>http://hovreferendum.wordpress.com/2007/12/03/cne-announces-no-win/#comment-33</link>
		<dc:creator>Jose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 12:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hovreferendum.wordpress.com/2007/12/03/cne-announces-no-win/#comment-33</guid>
		<description>Happy new Year Venezuela!

Gracias por callar al mini-castro!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Happy new Year Venezuela!</p>
<p>Gracias por callar al mini-castro!</p>
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		<title>By: Trotter_Yugoslavia</title>
		<link>http://hovreferendum.wordpress.com/2007/12/03/cne-announces-no-win/#comment-32</link>
		<dc:creator>Trotter_Yugoslavia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 11:20:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hovreferendum.wordpress.com/2007/12/03/cne-announces-no-win/#comment-32</guid>
		<description>A sad day indeed... However, instead of blaming the other side lets try and see what went wrong on our side, lets see why workers weren&#039;t educated well enough to recognize the importance of the new constitution. Reforms can only take one so far, now it&#039;s time for the workers to organize and continue the social change from below.
Although I am also terribly shocked, I urge all the comrades not to despair, it&#039;s not the end of everything, Chavez is still in office, PSUV still rules and the workers and peasants of Venezuela are still mobilizing! Victory will be ours!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A sad day indeed&#8230; However, instead of blaming the other side lets try and see what went wrong on our side, lets see why workers weren&#8217;t educated well enough to recognize the importance of the new constitution. Reforms can only take one so far, now it&#8217;s time for the workers to organize and continue the social change from below.<br />
Although I am also terribly shocked, I urge all the comrades not to despair, it&#8217;s not the end of everything, Chavez is still in office, PSUV still rules and the workers and peasants of Venezuela are still mobilizing! Victory will be ours!</p>
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		<title>By: hovreferendum = pwned</title>
		<link>http://hovreferendum.wordpress.com/2007/12/03/cne-announces-no-win/#comment-31</link>
		<dc:creator>hovreferendum = pwned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 09:30:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hovreferendum.wordpress.com/2007/12/03/cne-announces-no-win/#comment-31</guid>
		<description>Ha ha ha marxist troll counted his chickens at Gateway Pundit too early, and got totally PWNED by the result.

Isn&#039;t it great when democracy works?

LOL.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ha ha ha marxist troll counted his chickens at Gateway Pundit too early, and got totally PWNED by the result.</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t it great when democracy works?</p>
<p>LOL.</p>
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		<title>By: Angy</title>
		<link>http://hovreferendum.wordpress.com/2007/12/03/cne-announces-no-win/#comment-30</link>
		<dc:creator>Angy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 08:36:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hovreferendum.wordpress.com/2007/12/03/cne-announces-no-win/#comment-30</guid>
		<description>A new day for Venezuela and venezuelan people!!!
We don&#039;t want another Castro in the world!
I pray Europe, USA and Latin America States not to permit to Chavez to do what Lenin, Castro and others has done in the past.
Happy new year, Venezuela!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A new day for Venezuela and venezuelan people!!!<br />
We don&#8217;t want another Castro in the world!<br />
I pray Europe, USA and Latin America States not to permit to Chavez to do what Lenin, Castro and others has done in the past.<br />
Happy new year, Venezuela!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Renegade Eye</title>
		<link>http://hovreferendum.wordpress.com/2007/12/03/cne-announces-no-win/#comment-29</link>
		<dc:creator>Renegade Eye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 08:30:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hovreferendum.wordpress.com/2007/12/03/cne-announces-no-win/#comment-29</guid>
		<description>Now that the system worked for the opposition, what can they say?

Expect the extreme right to overplay its hand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now that the system worked for the opposition, what can they say?</p>
<p>Expect the extreme right to overplay its hand.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://hovreferendum.wordpress.com/2007/12/03/cne-announces-no-win/#comment-28</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 07:24:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hovreferendum.wordpress.com/2007/12/03/cne-announces-no-win/#comment-28</guid>
		<description>This goes to show everyone that Marx, Lenin were right.....you can&#039;t overthrow capitalism using the liberal democracy and the state. 

There must be REVOLUTION. Chavez is a great man and he is a hero but now it&#039;s time for the workers to take the government by force because the bureaucrats of the government and of the PSUV did what they had to do.....and that was perserve capitalism.

The bureaucrats and the reformists, the fifth column, of the PSUV are the ones who made this happen. The workers must now become more radical themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This goes to show everyone that Marx, Lenin were right&#8230;..you can&#8217;t overthrow capitalism using the liberal democracy and the state. </p>
<p>There must be REVOLUTION. Chavez is a great man and he is a hero but now it&#8217;s time for the workers to take the government by force because the bureaucrats of the government and of the PSUV did what they had to do&#8230;..and that was perserve capitalism.</p>
<p>The bureaucrats and the reformists, the fifth column, of the PSUV are the ones who made this happen. The workers must now become more radical themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: Diem</title>
		<link>http://hovreferendum.wordpress.com/2007/12/03/cne-announces-no-win/#comment-27</link>
		<dc:creator>Diem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 06:40:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hovreferendum.wordpress.com/2007/12/03/cne-announces-no-win/#comment-27</guid>
		<description>This is really confusing, with Reuters (!) announcing that the Yes votes were in the lead, then the CNE announces that the NOs win... Could there have been sabotage in the CNE?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is really confusing, with Reuters (!) announcing that the Yes votes were in the lead, then the CNE announces that the NOs win&#8230; Could there have been sabotage in the CNE?</p>
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